Since Jhalm sent Murai on the mission that made her mad as well, I can feel the words “haven’t you made the poor girl suffer enough?” coming any second now.
Sometimes the Blind can see plainer than the Sighted.
Offhand, I would say that Boneclaw Mother has been where Jhalm is now, and has the knowledge of hard experience.
I would also say it’s losing game to try to outwit a wise matriarch. To update an old phrase,
She has his number, On speed-dial…
Oh, save yourself some dignity, Jhalm, and give it up. By entering into the argument at all, you lost. And you knew it. You didn’t save Murai earlier to kill her now, and you know that, too.
Has anyone suggested that he’s doing this on purpose as some kind of plot against Sweetgrass? It sounds farfetched, but honestly, he had to know in the opening round that he was outmatched against Boneclaw Mother, and he seems to accept all the delays that keep coming up with surprising calm, considering he should be in a hurry, since Digger had a head start to begin with. It’s 3 am and I’m rambling. Don’t mind me.
Heh! Glad to see the cold quashed, and a page up and going. Still the diplomacy, but there is a hole, he doesn’t serve just one god, but many, and some may be at cross purposes?
Boneclaw Mother should be called Boneclaw Grandmother –after all, this is a Hindu temple (Ganesh is of the Hindu pantheon) and many Asians/Indians do call their Eldest that title out of respect. Not only that, She seems to know of Ganesh as she tries to steer Jhalm away from this path of killing Mirai….
@DCL: Why do you think I picked what I did as my Gravatar? One just has to look at them as part of a Whole…. ; )
What Boneclaw Mother says in the first pannel remindes me of an argument I had a while back about Wonder Woman’s lasso.
Some think its lame. I personaly think that it’s the most powerful wepon out there. Some thing that will force people to admit the Truth. Not the precived truth the actual Truth. (In the real world how many political and religious leaders wouls even let them go anyware neat them)
But like Boneclaw Mother said. With all the witnesses perhaps Jhalm will concider his actions with more care
Okay, let’s see; that last line works as a statement of general morals, applies to the current situation with Muria, is a vindication of Ed, and a commentary on her general opinion of She and Sweetgrass’s behavior.
May also by a inverse refrence to gods that should be support, like, ya’know, Ganesh, who is anti-kid death in general, and told Jhalm to knock it off.
Boneclaw Mother: Rocking metaphors and metaphysics so hard it hurts (so good!)
I really don’t want to start any kind of debate (and will probably hide if I do start one here), but I have to say that I fully agree with Boneclaw Mother’s last statement.
FULLY.
There’s a reason my Sunday mornings are free time.
Lines like Boneclaw Mother’s last one there really ought to be delivered with kung-fu/Batman fighting sound effects (“whoah-PA! POW!”), because they will really leave marks.
For that matter, if Murai CAN hear them, that last line might well do her some good.
@ Madam Atom: Your conclusion on Christianity sounds totally off-base. Boneclaw Mother makes a sound theological and moral statement here, but it is not a statement that condemns the Christian God.
How curious, Lissy… no post here specifically attacked your religion. My Sunday mornings are also blissfully free of weekly obligations, except for the pets’ breakfast of course. This does not imply that you cannot choose to shoulder a weekly Sunday obligation of your own. But that’s your choice, as others may choose differently.
Turning back to the Gods of Diggers universe — is anyone else flashing back to the story of He-Is and She-Is, and the resulting deaths of the vast majority of first-born Hyena children?
I was surprised not to see that mentioned explicitly before now, but I think it would give Boneclaw Mother a Strong Opinion About These Things, indeed.
(p.s. I am happy to discuss the parallels and differences between Murai and Jesus on my own journal — http://gramina.dreamwidth.org — but personaly, I prefer not to highjack this space for that.)
@Gramina well said. I look forwards to it with interest.
As for the first born child point, I really had not considered that. As Sweetgrass was ultimately responsible, I’d expect Boneclaw Mother to have quite a lot of bottled up rage on the issue. Of just quiet resignation: it’s hard to tell with people sometimes, up until they either snap or crumble into resignation like a soggy digestive biscuit into a mug of hot, steaming tea.
Memo to self: Don’t type comments a half five GMT when you’re dying for tea and biscuits.
no human religion is perfect because people aren’t perfect. We are all fearfully and wonderfully flawed. Thus the whole desire for redemption. Jhalm has very good intentions but that isn’t keeping him off the road to hell. Technically, saying you’re leaving your sunday mornings open doesn’t mean you aren’t committed to anything. You could be 7th Day Adventist. They go on saturdays……..
Except, Gramina, you need a Dreamwidth account to reply.
Otherwise, I’m rather in agreement with Lissy. However, thirty-somethings aren’t really children except to their own parents… nor did that one stay dead if you take it literally.
Mostly though, I’m starting to wonder if Jhalm’s basis for acting is not “protect this god because Digger specifically is trying to kill it”, which just makes him a jerk trying to mess with Digger. But he’s acting on “if people find out one god they don’t like has been killed, what’s to stop them from trying to kill others they don’t like?” And since the only way to fully kill a god is by killing all of it’s followers (and whatever’s in that cave still has followers, even if they are *forcing* the god to live), and in doing so destroy the memory and essence of that god. He may be trying to stop a trend for theocide. It doesn’t matter if He-Is is possessed, He-Is is still a god, and Jhalm may not want it to become broad knowledge that gods can be killed, so he has to protect this god from being killed.
However, he certainly doesn’t want to hurt Murai either.
I gotta say, this isn’t going in the direction I thought it would… Mind you, it could go in that direction if Jhalm calms down.
After all, Murai has information he lacks, and should he listen to her report of what she has learned, he may decide his objective has changed. Or if he doesn’t really listen, the telling may buy time.
But there’s a practical issue here he may not have considered if he truly is willing to follow Digger and Ed down that hole, on his own if he must. Can he even FIT down Digger’s tunnel? After all, the whole reason Murai went down the hole is that there was no one else that met the requirements of physically capable, believing in Ganesh, and housebroken.
Just how much does Jhalm know about what’s going on down there? Until now, it seemed to me that he suspected Digger of ill intent based on her miraculous appearance in the temple and her association with Shadowchild. Is he now aware of Digger’s mission to lay He-Is to rest?
@Elena: No, Lissy’s right, and I should’ve kept my trap shut.
Apologies to those I’ve offended, and I’ll try to keep my prejudices to myself in the future.
@Mishal: Had not thought of that angle on Jhalm at all. Nice work; I think you may be on to something there. But I think most of it is, in fact, “Digger wants it and so it’s bad”–not out of any malice (though he IS a jerk), but because she really has acted suspiciously since her arrival, from what he can see. We-the-readers know he’s wrong and she’s a good sort, but he doesn’t really have any reason to believe that; all he knows is that events ranging from inconvenient to damn scary occur when she’s around.
I don’t anyone should be offended or apologizing, every has an opinion, I will not state my opinion on that subject though. I LOVE BONECLAW MOTHER, SHE IS WISE AND DOWNRIGHT AWESOME
In response to the theological discussion above: I really didn’t see Boneclaw mother’s comment as a jab at Jesus at all. That said, it DID shine a different light on the Abraham and Issac story however. Aside from those weighty matters, I just wanted to point out that I appreciate how well articulated (not to mention mature) the comments on this topic are.
Oh, and while I’m at it, Ms Vernon, your comic rocks, (HAH! Unintentional pun!) keep it up!
the way i see it digger upsets the balance of power among the gods, thus jhalm doesn’t like digger since his job is to maintain peace between them. we the readers have only seen things from diggers eyes, and we also most likely sympathize with digger’s point of view. what if digger was about to kill the god of women’s scorn, helped by the god of justified rape? most of us don’t believe in justified rape and thus it would be a hard sell for us think of such a god helping a good cause out of compassion (at least mostly out of compassion).
i am surprised no one has brought up the fact that since boneclaw has said that she and the rest of the warriors there are just there as witnesses (implying that they won’t interfere), that jhalm didn’t attack murai immediately. which implies that he feels ashamed at attacking murai, enough so that he’ll let himself be distracted from his current mission. therefore boneclaw has stayed his hand simply by strengthening his inner moral turmoil, rather than a show of force or use of logical arguments. in fact i’d bet that since he is a warrior bent on protection that the more she comes of as confrontational the more likely he is to regain his resolve.
He-is wants to die. He’s being kept alive by and through Sweetgrass Voice’s machinations, because their lives are bound together.
Jhalm is the sort of self-righteous priest/”servant” who prefers to serve the gods by knowing better than they do. Witness that when he disagrees with Ganesh regarding Digger, his reaction is to mistrust Ganesh, not to allow the god’s wisdom to guide him.
Hubris is a shocking yet typical sin of high priests.
Reading this, I couldn’t help but think how I wished someone had been there in the story of Abraham and Isaac to play the role of Boneclaw Mother. Wishful thinking, yes. I wonder if Ursula had that biblical tale at all in mind while writing this.
@ Madam Atom: I agree with Boneclaw Mother, and you, as well.
But I’d like to say that no, I don’t think the Christian God falls into that category – but the institution that the Christian church has become could well be seen as a god that eats its children. I want to be clear about the distinction: I believe very much in the *discipline* of Christ. Not what the leadership of the umpteen sects of Christianity tout.
I could go on, but it’s very true that this is not the place to do it. (And I also agree with Mishal.)
Now, on the topic of Jhalm and his actions – it’s true that most of the direct evidence of his eyes could have led him to assume that Digger is in some way the cause of recent events; but I must wonder at his stubborn refusal to listen to the evidence presented him by Ganesh-statue. This discourse with Boneclaw Mother shows him as being relatively intelligent and having good manners…which is at odds with how he has acted around Digger.
Now, either he’s a jerk…or he’s scared spitless of Digger, for some reason. He certainly doesn’t think Digger is a safe person – to judge by his reactions he thinks she’s the root of all the trouble that has been happening. And, in a strange way, he’s right, since it is her tunnel that now links the temple of Ganesh with the lair of the Cold Ones.
But, I find it strange that Jhalm and the Veiled just *happened* to be passing through when Digger arrived? Close enough to her arrival that they could try to pinpoint her as the problem? I may have to go through and re-read the archives to clarify that point but my memory is saying there’s some suspicious timing there.
I know it’s going against the general tone, but I can’t help but sympathise with Jhalm. As far as he knows, the wombat is in league with demons and out to murder a god – and he’s technically correct. Sure, there’s the mother of all extenuating circumstances, but he doesn’t know that (yet).
Tindi –
I’m not at all sure Jhalm thinks he’s outmatched by Boneclaw Mother (well, he may be getting a glimmering _now_)- I think he went in quite convinced he was more than a match for some little old, probably feeble and senile, hyena and her rag-tag little group of followers – after all, he and his followers have apparently managed pretty well at forcing the hyenas into their “reservation”. Besides, I suspect he’s the sort that has a pretty high opinion of himself.
And now I need to go back to the archives, to see what who knew when.
In my heart, I just let out a tiny, joyous ‘SQUEE’. Boneclaw Mother, I less than three you for that last bit of dialogue.
Oh yes. Hyenas are just that much win.
I wonder if Murai can hear this. Can’t tell from the back of her head.
For some odd reason, I was halfway expecting to see eyes on the back of Murai’s head.
Talk the talk, Boneclaw Mother! Make him RUE!
This has gone from verbal tennis to verbal volleyball… and I think BCM has just set for the spike.
The line about gods and children is *espeically* poignant when you realize the relationship the hyenas have with their own gods and dead children..
Since Jhalm sent Murai on the mission that made her mad as well, I can feel the words “haven’t you made the poor girl suffer enough?” coming any second now.
Sometimes the Blind can see plainer than the Sighted.
Offhand, I would say that Boneclaw Mother has been where Jhalm is now, and has the knowledge of hard experience.
I would also say it’s losing game to try to outwit a wise matriarch. To update an old phrase,
She has his number, On speed-dial…
Rue!
Oh, save yourself some dignity, Jhalm, and give it up. By entering into the argument at all, you lost. And you knew it. You didn’t save Murai earlier to kill her now, and you know that, too.
Has anyone suggested that he’s doing this on purpose as some kind of plot against Sweetgrass? It sounds farfetched, but honestly, he had to know in the opening round that he was outmatched against Boneclaw Mother, and he seems to accept all the delays that keep coming up with surprising calm, considering he should be in a hurry, since Digger had a head start to begin with. It’s 3 am and I’m rambling. Don’t mind me.
http://topwebcomics.com/vote/10180/default.aspx – I’ve voted – have you?
Really interesting Judeo-Christian commentary subtext going on here in those last lines.
Stop rambling and vote! Boneclaw Mother demands it!
(Um, I forgot the URL. Sorry ’bout that.)
http://topwebcomics.com/vote/10180/default.aspx
Vote!
Heh! Glad to see the cold quashed, and a page up and going. Still the diplomacy, but there is a hole, he doesn’t serve just one god, but many, and some may be at cross purposes?
Whait… doesn’t She-Is-Fiercer demand the life of every firstborn?
So is she a god not worth saving as well? Curious.
Boneclaw Mother should be called Boneclaw Grandmother –after all, this is a Hindu temple (Ganesh is of the Hindu pantheon) and many Asians/Indians do call their Eldest that title out of respect. Not only that, She seems to know of Ganesh as she tries to steer Jhalm away from this path of killing Mirai….
@DCL: Why do you think I picked what I did as my Gravatar? One just has to look at them as part of a Whole…. ; )
What Boneclaw Mother says in the first pannel remindes me of an argument I had a while back about Wonder Woman’s lasso.
Some think its lame. I personaly think that it’s the most powerful wepon out there. Some thing that will force people to admit the Truth. Not the precived truth the actual Truth. (In the real world how many political and religious leaders wouls even let them go anyware neat them)
But like Boneclaw Mother said. With all the witnesses perhaps Jhalm will concider his actions with more care
“A god that demands a child’s life is not a god worth saving”
And She-Is-Fiercer takes the hyenas’ firstborn. Brr.
Okay, let’s see; that last line works as a statement of general morals, applies to the current situation with Muria, is a vindication of Ed, and a commentary on her general opinion of She and Sweetgrass’s behavior.
May also by a inverse refrence to gods that should be support, like, ya’know, Ganesh, who is anti-kid death in general, and told Jhalm to knock it off.
Boneclaw Mother: Rocking metaphors and metaphysics so hard it hurts (so good!)
Just keep him talking and he won’t be getting to the doing that you don’t want…
Very savvy indeed!
I really don’t want to start any kind of debate (and will probably hide if I do start one here), but I have to say that I fully agree with Boneclaw Mother’s last statement.
FULLY.
There’s a reason my Sunday mornings are free time.
I must join in the chorus saying how much we love Boneclaw Mother
Lines like Boneclaw Mother’s last one there really ought to be delivered with kung-fu/Batman fighting sound effects (“whoah-PA! POW!”), because they will really leave marks.
For that matter, if Murai CAN hear them, that last line might well do her some good.
I’m loving our Boneclaw Mother too! So glad she can stand up for truth and rightful action.
@ Madam Atom: Your conclusion on Christianity sounds totally off-base. Boneclaw Mother makes a sound theological and moral statement here, but it is not a statement that condemns the Christian God.
How curious, Lissy… no post here specifically attacked your religion. My Sunday mornings are also blissfully free of weekly obligations, except for the pets’ breakfast of course. This does not imply that you cannot choose to shoulder a weekly Sunday obligation of your own. But that’s your choice, as others may choose differently.
Turning back to the Gods of Diggers universe — is anyone else flashing back to the story of He-Is and She-Is, and the resulting deaths of the vast majority of first-born Hyena children?
I was surprised not to see that mentioned explicitly before now, but I think it would give Boneclaw Mother a Strong Opinion About These Things, indeed.
(p.s. I am happy to discuss the parallels and differences between Murai and Jesus on my own journal — http://gramina.dreamwidth.org — but personaly, I prefer not to highjack this space for that.)
@Gramina well said. I look forwards to it with interest.
As for the first born child point, I really had not considered that. As Sweetgrass was ultimately responsible, I’d expect Boneclaw Mother to have quite a lot of bottled up rage on the issue. Of just quiet resignation: it’s hard to tell with people sometimes, up until they either snap or crumble into resignation like a soggy digestive biscuit into a mug of hot, steaming tea.
Memo to self: Don’t type comments a half five GMT when you’re dying for tea and biscuits.
no human religion is perfect because people aren’t perfect. We are all fearfully and wonderfully flawed. Thus the whole desire for redemption. Jhalm has very good intentions but that isn’t keeping him off the road to hell. Technically, saying you’re leaving your sunday mornings open doesn’t mean you aren’t committed to anything. You could be 7th Day Adventist. They go on saturdays……..
Who is not in love with Boneclaw Mother right now? <3
Except, Gramina, you need a Dreamwidth account to reply.
Otherwise, I’m rather in agreement with Lissy. However, thirty-somethings aren’t really children except to their own parents… nor did that one stay dead if you take it literally.
Mostly though, I’m starting to wonder if Jhalm’s basis for acting is not “protect this god because Digger specifically is trying to kill it”, which just makes him a jerk trying to mess with Digger. But he’s acting on “if people find out one god they don’t like has been killed, what’s to stop them from trying to kill others they don’t like?” And since the only way to fully kill a god is by killing all of it’s followers (and whatever’s in that cave still has followers, even if they are *forcing* the god to live), and in doing so destroy the memory and essence of that god. He may be trying to stop a trend for theocide. It doesn’t matter if He-Is is possessed, He-Is is still a god, and Jhalm may not want it to become broad knowledge that gods can be killed, so he has to protect this god from being killed.
However, he certainly doesn’t want to hurt Murai either.
I gotta say, this isn’t going in the direction I thought it would… Mind you, it could go in that direction if Jhalm calms down.
After all, Murai has information he lacks, and should he listen to her report of what she has learned, he may decide his objective has changed. Or if he doesn’t really listen, the telling may buy time.
But there’s a practical issue here he may not have considered if he truly is willing to follow Digger and Ed down that hole, on his own if he must. Can he even FIT down Digger’s tunnel? After all, the whole reason Murai went down the hole is that there was no one else that met the requirements of physically capable, believing in Ganesh, and housebroken.
Just how much does Jhalm know about what’s going on down there? Until now, it seemed to me that he suspected Digger of ill intent based on her miraculous appearance in the temple and her association with Shadowchild. Is he now aware of Digger’s mission to lay He-Is to rest?
@Elena: No, Lissy’s right, and I should’ve kept my trap shut.
Apologies to those I’ve offended, and I’ll try to keep my prejudices to myself in the future.
@Mishal: Had not thought of that angle on Jhalm at all. Nice work; I think you may be on to something there. But I think most of it is, in fact, “Digger wants it and so it’s bad”–not out of any malice (though he IS a jerk), but because she really has acted suspiciously since her arrival, from what he can see. We-the-readers know he’s wrong and she’s a good sort, but he doesn’t really have any reason to believe that; all he knows is that events ranging from inconvenient to damn scary occur when she’s around.
I don’t anyone should be offended or apologizing, every has an opinion, I will not state my opinion on that subject though. I LOVE BONECLAW MOTHER, SHE IS WISE AND DOWNRIGHT AWESOME
HEY! Hey guys!!! Digger made it to the top 25! We’re rated 24!
This chapter is called ‘How I’m testing how much more the readers can love Boneclaw Mother before their heads explode’
@Mishal Exodus 12:12… Not just ‘thirty somethings’.
23, now. 🙂
Mother Boneclaw is awesome. Best webcomic out there, Cheers.
In response to the theological discussion above: I really didn’t see Boneclaw mother’s comment as a jab at Jesus at all. That said, it DID shine a different light on the Abraham and Issac story however. Aside from those weighty matters, I just wanted to point out that I appreciate how well articulated (not to mention mature) the comments on this topic are.
Oh, and while I’m at it, Ms Vernon, your comic rocks, (HAH! Unintentional pun!) keep it up!
Cheers,
Cote
the way i see it digger upsets the balance of power among the gods, thus jhalm doesn’t like digger since his job is to maintain peace between them. we the readers have only seen things from diggers eyes, and we also most likely sympathize with digger’s point of view. what if digger was about to kill the god of women’s scorn, helped by the god of justified rape? most of us don’t believe in justified rape and thus it would be a hard sell for us think of such a god helping a good cause out of compassion (at least mostly out of compassion).
i am surprised no one has brought up the fact that since boneclaw has said that she and the rest of the warriors there are just there as witnesses (implying that they won’t interfere), that jhalm didn’t attack murai immediately. which implies that he feels ashamed at attacking murai, enough so that he’ll let himself be distracted from his current mission. therefore boneclaw has stayed his hand simply by strengthening his inner moral turmoil, rather than a show of force or use of logical arguments. in fact i’d bet that since he is a warrior bent on protection that the more she comes of as confrontational the more likely he is to regain his resolve.
: “crumble………. like a soggy digestive biscuit into a mug of hot, steaming tea.”
A simile with which I am intimately and depressingly familiar…….. 7@=Q
As Stargate SG-1 pointed out, it’s not the powers you have; it’s how you use them.
He-is wants to die. He’s being kept alive by and through Sweetgrass Voice’s machinations, because their lives are bound together.
Jhalm is the sort of self-righteous priest/”servant” who prefers to serve the gods by knowing better than they do. Witness that when he disagrees with Ganesh regarding Digger, his reaction is to mistrust Ganesh, not to allow the god’s wisdom to guide him.
Hubris is a shocking yet typical sin of high priests.
Reading this, I couldn’t help but think how I wished someone had been there in the story of Abraham and Isaac to play the role of Boneclaw Mother. Wishful thinking, yes. I wonder if Ursula had that biblical tale at all in mind while writing this.
@ Madam Atom: I agree with Boneclaw Mother, and you, as well.
But I’d like to say that no, I don’t think the Christian God falls into that category – but the institution that the Christian church has become could well be seen as a god that eats its children. I want to be clear about the distinction: I believe very much in the *discipline* of Christ. Not what the leadership of the umpteen sects of Christianity tout.
I could go on, but it’s very true that this is not the place to do it. (And I also agree with Mishal.)
Now, on the topic of Jhalm and his actions – it’s true that most of the direct evidence of his eyes could have led him to assume that Digger is in some way the cause of recent events; but I must wonder at his stubborn refusal to listen to the evidence presented him by Ganesh-statue. This discourse with Boneclaw Mother shows him as being relatively intelligent and having good manners…which is at odds with how he has acted around Digger.
Now, either he’s a jerk…or he’s scared spitless of Digger, for some reason. He certainly doesn’t think Digger is a safe person – to judge by his reactions he thinks she’s the root of all the trouble that has been happening. And, in a strange way, he’s right, since it is her tunnel that now links the temple of Ganesh with the lair of the Cold Ones.
But, I find it strange that Jhalm and the Veiled just *happened* to be passing through when Digger arrived? Close enough to her arrival that they could try to pinpoint her as the problem? I may have to go through and re-read the archives to clarify that point but my memory is saying there’s some suspicious timing there.
Could Sweetgrass-Voice have suborned Jhalm?
I know it’s going against the general tone, but I can’t help but sympathise with Jhalm. As far as he knows, the wombat is in league with demons and out to murder a god – and he’s technically correct. Sure, there’s the mother of all extenuating circumstances, but he doesn’t know that (yet).
Nice artwork!
Tindi –
I’m not at all sure Jhalm thinks he’s outmatched by Boneclaw Mother (well, he may be getting a glimmering _now_)- I think he went in quite convinced he was more than a match for some little old, probably feeble and senile, hyena and her rag-tag little group of followers – after all, he and his followers have apparently managed pretty well at forcing the hyenas into their “reservation”. Besides, I suspect he’s the sort that has a pretty high opinion of himself.
And now I need to go back to the archives, to see what who knew when.